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Guest: James Carse

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 [The complete audio and video for this program are also available here.]  Too often we confuse religion with belief. Belief systems are closed. Religion, says Jim Carse, is an open, seeking, questioning, "horizonal" process. Truth is an illusion. Truth seeking is the path to knowledge and understanding. Those who assume they know the truth are ideologues and fundamentalists ... and dangerous. Even scientists succumb to the lure of certainty. Those who claim to know the truth cannot resist imposing their beliefs on the rest of us. Reason, evidence, experience ... these do not deter these latter day zealots.While scientists inspired Dr. Carse to make what he calls a religious case against belief, global challenges add urgency to his eagerness to clarify general confusion about the distinction.“To put it into a kind of formula, you could be religious without believing anything, and you can be a true believer -- an intensely committed believer -- without being religious.” Dr. Carse’s examples of belief systems range from dogmatisms found in all religions, to Nazism, Maoism, Serbian nationalism, and American triumphalism. “Belief systems always have a complete explanation for anything that’s going on. They brace up authority, are perfectly rational and inherently dangerous. You want to keep a clear boundary around your belief system. You definitely want to stimulate opposition. You never win an argument with a believer.”Religion, he says, is full of questions and the capacity to open us to ongoing wonder. “Serious scholars of religion do not even try to define it. It’s too rich a phenomenon. Religions have nothing to say. Within the great religious traditions -- all of the great religions -- they are not sure themselves what’s going on. That’s why these traditions have such vitality. Once you know what a religion’s all about, it dies." Dr. Carse says scientists who confuse religion and belief when addressing theism make a serious error. “What they’ve done is to take a scientific point of view and attack a belief system. But the only way you can do that is to convert your scientific point of view into a belief system. So it becomes an ideological battle that really doesn’t enlighten anyone. The best treatment is indifference.” Galileo is Dr. Carse’s example, anticipating we’ll be surprised by the reason Pope Urban VIII put Galileo on trial. “The idea that the earth rotated around the sun had been generally accepted for 90 years. Why was the Pope after Galileo? Galileo never trusted any of his own conclusions. I think Urban VIII sensed that (this meant) there was no area of thought that isn’t subject to question. And of course that reflects back on religious dogma.” Death and evil are two very good test issues for religion, he says. “Belief systems invariably define what death is and what evil is. You have to have heroes and dying is part of the heroic element of a belief system. One thing I’ve found looking over great ranges of religious phenomena is there’s no definition of death out there. “The important thing about evil is attaching it to our own inner reality where it belongs. One of my favorite remarks about evil is in Jesus’ really strong remark in the Gospels, ‘Do not look for the speck in someone else’s eye without seeing the log in your own.’ “I think one of the great services that religion does is to remind us -- urge us at every moment -- to be stunned. To find our existence and the world in which we find it marvelous. There is no point in our everyday existence at which we could not stop and be absolutely amazed that we exist even. How easily we forget that!” 


 We relish the grace with which Jim Carse shares his big ideas with wit, wisdom and wonderful good humor. We both were tremendously impressed with the elegance with which he applies his luminous ideas -- first encountered in Finite and Infinite Games -- to the challenges of today’s world in his Religious Case Against Belief.We thank him for the many beautiful ways he’s lived his own “vision of life as play and possibility." We look forward to continuing this Conversation with the same enthusiasm he generated for us when he braved a blizzard to be Guest on our very first “Paula Gordon Show” in 1995. 

Related Links

 The Religious Case Against Belief is published by PenguinFinite and Infinite Games: A Vision of Life as Play and Possibility by Ballantine BooksBreakfast at the Victory: The Mysticism of Ordinary Experience by HarperOneGospel of the Beloved Disciple and The Silence of God: Meditations on Prayer by Harper San Francisco. An earlier program with James Carse is available here.   Philosopher Frederick Ferré has covered from a philosophical perspective some of the questions addressed by Dr. Carse.Carolyn Jessop's account of her life in and escape from the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) presents a vivid and terrible example of the dangers of a criminal belief system protected by the veneer of religion.Vows of Silence: The Abuse of Power in the Papacy of John Paul II written by Jason Berry and the late Gerald Renner tells another story of religious cover for illegal acts, in this case relating to the Legionaries of Christ, Rev. Marcial Maciel Degollado, Regnum Christi and the Vatican.Surprisingly, at the end of his life, René Descartes added the emotions to his mind-body structure which lends support to Dr. Carse's "horizonal" view.  Russell Shorto gets beyond the simple stereotypes associated with Descarte in Descartes Bones: A Skeletal History of the Conflict between Faith and Reason.   Walter Truett Anderson has addressed many of these "life questions" in his writings. Alan Wallaceapproaches these questions from the perspective of Buddhism and consciousness studies.   Robert Funk devoted much of his life to exploring the human Jesus behind the mysteries of Christianity.   Garry Wills has explored the Christian perspective in a series of books on the New Testament.   Theoretical biologist Stuart Kauffman presents his view of how to reconcile science and religion inReinventing the Sacred. Kauffman and psychiatrist Charles Raison explore science and the mind against a backdrop of Tibetan Buddhism.   Over the years, this program series has looked at what is broadly characterized as "religion" and its impacts on life today.  These programs include (in no particular order):  Cornel WestRobert Franklin,Bruce FeilerAlan DershowitzJoseph L. RobertsJohn Shelby SpongRobin MeyersReza Aslan,Geneive AbdoKevin PhillipsLeonard Shlain and Jim Wallis.   And, here's a little background information on Paula Gordon and Bill Russell, the Program co-hosts. 

This Program was recorded on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 in Berkshires of Massachusetts

Tags: belief systems civitas communitas Finite and Infinite Games fundamentalism horizonal thinking James Carse religion science The Religious Case Against Belief truthfulness